Black portrayals

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Black portrayals

Postby LLeff » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:22 pm

scottp wrote:But just the other day I saw a reprint of a 1940 Chesapeake & Ohio Railway ad for their passenger trains. The company played up Colonial Virginia in a lot of their advertising. This one showed genteel folks in the dining car being served by a black waiter, while the panel above showed genteel fellows of the powdered-wig era bowing to the ladies-- but their... ahem... "unpaid employees" weren't shown.


I just plucked this observation out of the Walking Man discussion, as it brings up something that I wanted to throw out for conversation.

Take a look at this month's video clip (assuming you have broadband) on the home page (Jack gets a shoe shine). Notice that all the shoeshine boys (I hesitate to use that term for fear of racist inferences, which are not intended) are African American. I scratched my head for a few minutes before I posted that one, because I didn't want a JB newbie to come on the site and prejudge any racial characteristics of the show by viewing that clip with 21st-century eyes. But hey, it's the show.

The above quote makes me think back to this small quandary, since it's of a similar nature. What reactions, if any, did you have on viewing this clip?
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Postby Maxwell » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:59 pm

The job may have been stereotypical (although I have to say that at U.S. Cellular Field in Chicago an African-American man runs a shoeshine stand down the right field line on the lower-deck concourse, so it's not unheard of even today), but I noticed that there were no stereotypical Stepin Fetchit drawls and that the humor reflected Jack's tightness rather than race.

I was a kid in the '50s and '60s, and believe me, there was a whole lot worse than that that passed as humor back then.
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Postby shimp scrampi » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:20 am

This is an always-interesting discussion that can really strike some sore spots in people, so hopefully no snarkiness is inferred where it isn't intended. Anyway here's my two cents:

The roles where whites and blacks could interact on TV without controversy in the '50s and early '60s were pretty limited - generally, whites being served in some business relationship by blacks. Certainly that is and was totally, unquestionably wrong. But, like it or not, that is how relationships were allowed to be shown by networks, etc.

Entertainment programs either totally ignored the fact that people of color existed (Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie & Harriet, etc), or presented them in stereotyped occupations on the sidelines. I don't think either approach was necessarily a 'better' solution - but is one worse than the other? At least shows like this one gave some black actors a job on TV, where none would be had on Father Knows Best!

Regarding (post-war) Rochester and characters like the shoe-shiners, the problem isn't that they are 'servants', it's just that there were no other African Americans who WEREN'T servants to show there were other possibilities for minorities out there. Nobody gets in a huff because Alice from 'The Brady Bunch' or Hazel had no other life but to serve their employers, and had to deferentially refer to them by surname - because there were other white women on TV doing other things (granted, limited things!).

Jack's show inadvertently compounds the problem to the first-time viewer because his character is basically an aggravating, cheapskate exploiter of everyone who will do something for him for very little money - so if you aren't familiar with the fact that he does this to Dennis Day, Mary, Phil, Don, and all of them, the Rochester relationship on first viewing can be especially uncomfortable.

Anyway this is turning into an essay - but to sum up, yep, I do get a tiny wince at the shoeshiners, but it's because of an awareness of history moreso than anything at all in the show itself.
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Postby bboswell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:04 am

It's unfortunate, but I was watching the shoeshine episode with 21st century eyes. As soon as I got the gist of what was going on, instead of watching it for entertainment, I kept watching it thinking: I hope they don't do anything too racist. Apart from what shimp mentioned--showing only whites being served by blacks--it wasn't objectionable.
(Of course, my WASP view probably isn't what people seek when finding out what minorities find objectionable. My 1/8-Native-American blood doesn't carry alot of "minority" weight!)
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Postby Jack Benny » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:53 am

shimp scrampi wrote:Entertainment programs either totally ignored the fact that people of color existed (Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie & Harriet, etc), or presented them in stereotyped occupations on the sidelines. I don't think either approach was necessarily a 'better' solution - but is one worse than the other? At least shows like this one gave some black actors a job on TV, where none would be had on Father Knows Best!


I've wanted to start this discussion many times, but just never got around to doing it. "Shimp" nails it in his post! It appears that if you totally ignored race and hired no black actors whatsoever, then you are allowed to be seen over and over again in syndication. On the other hand, if like Jack, you hired a lot of black actors and put them in the rolse they were "allowed" to have, even if you treated them with respect, your show cannot be shown in re-runs. The only reason I can come up with this is the stations and programers are uncomfortabole with any controversy. So, yet again, African Americans are treated like they did not exist before Star Trek and I Spy.

Even the shows from the '70's are considered too stereotypical, and are not often seen. I feel that African Americans have a television heritage, that should be seen. Everyone is handled sterotypically in the 50's TV land, Women, African Americans, Latinos, even Men are always leaders or teh "Bad guy."

I'm very proud that Jack had so many African Americans on his show, and I bet if you interviewed any of them, they would all be delighted that they could find any acting job on television at all in the 1950's.
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Postby shimp scrampi » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:21 am

I'd like to think the times are a'changin' with respect to some of these issues - that people are realizing the complexity of the issue and that just hiding away programs that have any hint of stereotype in them is no solution at all.

Heck, even Disney is finally releasing "Song of the South" to home video, I believe with an appropriate solution to the issue: a DVD supplement that contextualizes the characters and the controversy over the film. Sure, the roles might have sucked, but denying audiences the chance to see brilliant performers like Eddie Anderson is also a crime. And, this is just from my quasi-cracker perspective here, but I think our modern societal stereotypes of "welfare mother" and "gangsta thugs" are just as - if not more - hurtful than the old "uncle Tom" ones. Have we really come that much further?
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Postby bboswell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:35 am

I know I'm in danger of straying a little off the Jack Benny track, but I'd like to point out a few things I have observed in Amos & Andy. (Arguably the quintessential show people will point to on the subject of race.)
First of all, when growing up (I was born in 1970) no one ever pointed out to me that these characters were supposed to be African-American. The shows themselves never brought it up, and I didn't think in racial terms. I certainly am not blind to the show's history, but the latter shows simply didn't make it a point to say: "Hey! These characters are of African descent!! Notice how ... (insert any stereotype here) ... they are??" To me, they were just funny characters in funny situations.
Secondly, naysayers talk about the "lazy" stereotypes on the show. Although Andy was lazy and dim-witted and Kingfish was lazy, conniving, and not too swift himself, there are several characters who defy these "stereotypical" traits:

Most importantly Amos, the TITLE character, is intelligent, hard-working, and honest. He certainly doesn't have a glamorous job, driving a cab, but African-Americans didn't have much opportunity back then.
There were Stonewall, Gabby Gibson, and Calhoun, all lawyers; an insurance salesman (whos name escapes me at the moment;) and let's not forget Shorty who OWNED his own barbershop.

OK, I'm done with my little tyrade on Amos & Andy apologetics.
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Postby Maxwell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:28 pm

bboswell wrote:I know I'm in danger of straying a little off the Jack Benny track, but I'd like to point out a few things I have observed in Amos & Andy. (Arguably the quintessential show people will point to on the subject of race.)
First of all, when growing up (I was born in 1970) no one ever pointed out to me that these characters were supposed to be African-American. The shows themselves never brought it up, and I didn't think in racial terms. I certainly am not blind to the show's history, but the latter shows simply didn't make it a point to say: "Hey! These characters are of African descent!! Notice how ... (insert any stereotype here) ... they are??" To me, they were just funny characters in funny situations.
Secondly, naysayers talk about the "lazy" stereotypes on the show. Although Andy was lazy and dim-witted and Kingfish was lazy, conniving, and not too swift himself, there are several characters who defy these "stereotypical" traits:

Most importantly Amos, the TITLE character, is intelligent, hard-working, and honest. He certainly doesn't have a glamorous job, driving a cab, but African-Americans didn't have much opportunity back then.
There were Stonewall, Gabby Gibson, and Calhoun, all lawyers; an insurance salesman (whos name escapes me at the moment;) and let's not forget Shorty who OWNED his own barbershop.

OK, I'm done with my little tyrade on Amos & Andy apologetics.


I find your comments about no one ever pointing out that the characters in A&A were supposed to be African-American. Someone of my age (born 20 years before you) or older would have no trouble identifying the characters from their accents.

I can still remember one baseball play-by-play announcer referring to an African-American player (probably in the '60s) as being articulate. Having heard the player speak in interviews, I knew what the translation was for that: "He doesn't sound black."

Of course by the time I was a young child, A&A had been on television with an all-black cast, and as I grew up, the reruns were shown almost continuously in syndication. In fact, Chicago was the last major market to pull the TV show off the air. There was a lot of mugging on that show, and of course the accents were straight out of Stepin Fetchit (especially Lightnin').

Oddly enough, several years ago, a syndicated special was made, hosted by comedian George Kirby, that was a tribute to the TV show. I think it was an attempt by Kirby and/or the producers to take some of the stigma off the show. Indeed, the humor was universal, but I just couldn't get around the stereotyping. Even with a black cast, to me it seemed that A&A was all about what white people thought was black humor.

In the long run, maybe that's the difference. You don't get much more stereotyped that Eddie Murphy as Mr. Robinson, but it's a black man satirizing white stereothypes of blacks. There's a lot of stereotyped behavior in Richard Pryor's humor, but it's a black man satirizing the stereotypes. I think a lot of how comfortable I feel about such humor has to do with who is doing the writing.

[As a side-sidebar to this discussion, the sidebar being the Amos & Andy discussion, I remember in sixth or seventh grade seeing an assembly at school that was obviously sponsored by Quaker Oats, because it was an hour of entertainment featuring "Aunt Jemima." This would have been no later than about 1962. The relevance here is that Aunt Jemima was played by Amanda Ranolph (I think that's her first name) who played Mama on the A&A TV show and who was also Louise the maid on the Danny Thomas Show. I doubt if anyone at Quaker Oats would conceive of doing that today, even if that person were certifiable!]
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Jack and Rochester on Jubilee

Postby shimp scrampi » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:33 am

I've been pursuing a little JB topic related to this discussion - wondering how Jack and Rochester went over with black audiences of the day. The best evidence for this are three shows of the "Jubilee" program.

"Jubilee" was a live jazz music AFRS program aimed at black troops, with what I assume is a largely black studio audience. I've heard three Benny-related shows, one with Jack alone, one with Jack and Rochester together, and one with Eddie Anderson (as Roch) and Butterfly McQueen together. The last one is perhaps the least interesting, with Butterfly making some unwanted overtures to Rochester.

But, the others make for some good historical listening. In the Jack and Rochester joint appearance (from 1945), Rochester does some of the gin-and-dice material that was pretty much eliminated from the Benny show by that time. Jack and Roch do some ad-libbing, and one of Jack's comments on one of the stereotype lines is "I'm glad that didn't get a laugh" when the gag gets a weak response. It's unclear if he's referring to the material itself or is referencing Roch getting big laughs with even "straight" lines earlier, but it's an interesting comment nonetheless, since there was around this time, a conscious shift away from this stuff on the Benny show. Another curiosity is that Rochester is indeed billed as "Eddie Anderson" in the introduction, unlike on the Benny show.

Jack's solo appearance is also interesting. A modern listener might wonder (given latter-day critiques of the Rochester portrayal) if Jack might be poorly received by an all-black audience. That modern-day listener would be dead wrong! I have never heard Jack get such a rousing reception on any other guest shot he EVER did. Jack comes on, and does some bits with the jazz-talking host "Bubbles" Whitman, trying to pick up some hip slang to impress Phil Harris. Jack is totally at ease and in great form. He then does "Ida Sweet as Apple Cider" in a typically squeaky violin performance - and the audience is practically screaming for him to come back when his segment is done. Fascinating listening. If nothing else, it proves that Jack and, particularly Eddie Anderson, were beloved by their contemporary black audiences. It's just a theory, but I imagine it is due both to Eddie's amazing talent, and also that Rochester was essentially an intelligent, dimensional character, despite his subservient role.
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Postby mrdj » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:54 am

Listening to a show from Halloween of 1937, I was suprised to hear Rochester's brother September. Was this a one time shot, or brief recurring character? Rochester tells Jack he was named Rochester because thats where he was born, and September got his name because that's when he was born. Rochester adds that September is only his middle name because he was born in the middle of September. Also in that same show or perhaps the one before(and I have head Phil use the line several times to Jack) Phil says:''That's mighty white of you.''
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Re: Jack and Rochester on Jubilee

Postby LLeff » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:41 pm

shimp scrampi wrote:If nothing else, it proves that Jack and, particularly Eddie Anderson, were beloved by their contemporary black audiences.


Funny you mention that...I read a letter the other day from Booker T. Washington III to Jack saying what a thrill it was for him to come backstage and meet Jack, Rochester, and the rest of the gang.
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Postby Maxwell » Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:52 pm

Not to belabor the Amos and Andy subthread here, but this does kind of relate now that the topic of Eddie Anderson's and Jack's popularity in the African-American community. Amazingly enough, especially when you consider that the main characters were played by two white guys, Amos & Andy was also quite popular in the black community. I'm not sure what to make of that except that they were far different times than now.

Yet another sidetrack: Does anybody here remember the animated series Calvin and the Colonel from the early '60s? It was one of a host of "adult" cartoons that made it (albeit briefly) to prime time TV after the success of the Flintstones. The main characters voices were done by Charles Correll and Freeman Gosden, and they were the voices they used on Amos and Andy. The characters were all animals rather than human, perhaps a pre-emptive move to prevent any criticism about racism.

The problem was, the show was bad...very bad. So bad that I don't know if Correll and Gosden ever worked professionally again.
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Postby LLeff » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:34 pm

Maxwell wrote:Not to belabor the Amos and Andy subthread here, but this does kind of relate now that the topic of Eddie Anderson's and Jack's popularity in the African-American community. Amazingly enough, especially when you consider that the main characters were played by two white guys, Amos & Andy was also quite popular in the black community. I'm not sure what to make of that except that they were far different times than now.


At the risk of taking this further off-topic, I remember reading in the OTR Digest that Correll and Gosden would regularly do some sort of picnic or benefit for African-American kids. And there used to be an Amos n Andy cookie or ice cream bar, which was basically a vanilla center covered in chocolate. As far as I know, there was no protest about that at the time. But the irony does boggle the mind.
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Portrayals

Postby scottp » Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:40 pm

For what it's worth, it's been pointed out that in the TV show, A&A lived in an all-black world. They got hauled in by a black cop to appear before a black judge, etc. Of course that doesn't change the fact that the things the characters were doing might be the white stereotype of how blacks would act.

You think things must be better now, and then when you're channel-surfing, you find BET showing a bleep-this and bleep-that stand up comic--during the dinner hour! So much for bringing an end to negative images!

The most shocking Rochester joke I remember hearing from the 1930s shows was something about a party he attended, and then decided to leave, when the razors were being pulled out! And the only one that sticks in my mind as particularly funny, was the reference to a crap game as "Central Avenue Ping Pong."
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Postby bboswell » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:35 pm

This is more about the subject of race and how it was approached in the 40's:
There is an episode of Baby Snooks where Snooks changes schools with her friend Phoebe. Phoebe is an African American child. We, the audience, only know this because her mother is -- well here it is -- a housekeeper for the family with a very stereotypical accent.
In the course of the show, the teacher calls a meeting with Daddy, and expects him to be black. The writers let us enjoy the tension of the situation, (and it seems tastefully done to me,) where the teacher, in a meeting with a white guy, tries to figure the situation out gracefully.

Teacher: "Oh, she's adopted is she?"
Daddy: "No, I've got three more at home just like her."

Well, use your own judgement on that exchange, but I think that would pass with a chuckle on any show today. Of course, with society's view of interracial marriages mellowing over the last 50 years, the situation (a teacher trying to understand why a white dad would have a black child,) would be harder to sell these days.

I guess what makes this stand out to me, is that it seems like most shows had gotten away from using black stereotypes by this time, and were conscious of negative racial images. But the Snooks show went one step further, and was able to gently laugh at some... well, "racial tension" for lack of a better term.
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