IJBFC Chat - August 9, 2009

(Name of message originator in [] brackets at the beginning of each line)

*some loss at the beginning*

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, yeah, this show was a nice companion to his college thesis we did several months ago for chat.

[ed kienzler] i thought so

[Brad from Georgia] Oh, wait, that was Fred Allen, not Johnny.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Oh good point...I'd forgotten about that connection.

[Maxwell] Only thing I would have liked better this month was to be able to see the pictures.

[steve }-shimp-{] Yeah, the funny thing is, I know those pics so well I knew which ones they were talking about!

[Laura Leff] It was kind of funny...as they described each picture, I'm pretty sure I knew the exact picture they had.

[Brad from Georgia] I recognized a few of them, too!

[Laura Leff] OK, good! I'm glad I wasn't the only one!

[Brad from Georgia] Don't remember offhand--what was the date of the show?

[Laura Leff] 72

[steve }-shimp-{] Most of them are in the various biographies etc.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Yeah. There's almost no way Mary would have sent them...Irving would have sent them.

[Maxwell] I figured that out from the promo for the convention and some reference to a candidate or something.

[Brad from Georgia] So Jack had recently been hospitalized when he was on the show.

[Laura Leff] And I know most of the photos they had in their publicity file.

[Laura Leff] And had his car stolen...I didn't know that!

[steve }-shimp-{] I wonder if the car was ever found.

[steve }-shimp-{] Maybe it will show up on e-bay...

[Maxwell] Probably ended up in a chop shop.

[Brad from Georgia] I thought he sounded a little "off." Not sick exactly, but as if he was taking things more slowly than usual.

[Laura Leff] It's got to be out there somewhere most likely...maybe someone had a serial number.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Maybe you're right...

[steve }-shimp-{] He was older, Brad. A lot of his interviews around this time start sounding that way.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Yes, he didn't seem to realize when the commercials were coming and they just fade out on him.

[Brad from Georgia] He would occasionally seem forgetful, too.

[steve }-shimp-{] And, I think this is kind of an interesting (to me) point...

[Laura Leff] He was 78 and starting to sound his age publicly.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Yes, tended to repeat himself. And repeat himself. Over and over again.

[steve }-shimp-{] That most of the "real Jack" longer interviews are from later in his life --- at least the ones I know about.

[Laura Leff] Didn't have time for them earlier, most likely.

[steve }-shimp-{] So trying to get a sense of what Jack was like "in real life" is somewhat colored by the age factor.

[ed kienzler] no matter what he was funny esp. on Laugh-in

[Laura Leff] Steve - That is a very good point.

[Brad from Georgia] He always said he wasn't much good at ad-libbing, and the show was basically an ad-lib situation. I thought he handled it well!

[steve }-shimp-{] I wonder if he was that ... what's the word ... "laconic"... always?

[steve }-shimp-{] Kind of had a leisurely conversation pace.

[Laura Leff] His question about where to look was kind of interesting.

[steve }-shimp-{] Speaking of David Frost, his interview with Jack is similar in tone.

[Brad from Georgia] "The one with the red light on it?" You'd think he would know....

[steve }-shimp-{] Jack just noodles over any little thing at length for minutes on end.

[Laura Leff] That's true, but IIRC, Jack is more "on" in the Frost interview. Seems snappier.

[steve }-shimp-{] Definitely not a man for the "sound bite" era.

[Brad from Georgia] "You see, David, when a comedian does it it's NOT a CRIME."

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, I don't know... they seem about the same.

[steve }-shimp-{] I don't think Jack sounds senile or anything.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Like him on "Laugh In"..."Keep it moving, Mr. Benny, keep it moving!"

[Brad from Georgia] No, I don't think he sounds senile at all--just as though he were feeling a bit "off."

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Brad from Georgia] Maybe because he was upset about losing his car....

[ed kienzler] I remember the David Fry album with the frost-nixon interviews

[steve }-shimp-{] This show also solved a long-standing Jack Benny mystery for me.

[Laura Leff] I haven't seen the Frost interview in a few years...I remember him getting very "on" about how to "cheat" on the violin to make it sound good during his symphonic performances.

[Maxwell] Now I'm gonna hafta go back to the Dick Cavett stuff on YouTube (if it's still there) and check out his pace on those clips.

[steve }-shimp-{] "What did Rochester call Jack off-stage?"

[ed kienzler] I am not a crook!

[steve }-shimp-{] Anyway, I guess that is my point, I don't know if Jack's leisurely conversation pace was just "Jack", or age creeping up on him.

[Laura Leff] As Jack himself said in an oft-used 1972 interview, "Many comedians go from one topic to another to another--maybe topical humor. But my bit is to talk about a subject, and STAY on the subject!"

[Laura Leff] Maybe even slightly after the subject is exhausted...

[steve }-shimp-{] It's funny, you get the sense that Carson had more photos he wanted to go through, but Jack goes into a couple of stories on each one.

[Brad from Georgia] When I'm interviewed--not that often--I tend to speak more slowly than normal, because I'm thinking my way through the answer.

[steve }-shimp-{] I find it an endearing trait, that isn't evident in the "on-stage" Jack.

[Laura Leff] I'm seriously sorry that Jack doesn't tell about introducing Kennedy. That's the night that Marilyn sang him Happy Birthday!

[Maxwell] When I've been interviewed (just a couple of times), I tend to stammer and sound like a blithering idiot.

[Brad from Georgia] Nice present. And what a wrapper.

[steve }-shimp-{] But the prom story was great. I've seen those photos.

[Laura Leff] I find that, at least recently, I feel like I don't give as good of an interview as I used to.

[Brad from Georgia] I liked the story about George Burns's photo in the loo.

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, that was hilarious!

[Maxwell] Brad, I'm with you on that one. That was a scream.

[steve }-shimp-{] Almost as if George had a hand in it.

[Laura Leff] Someone asks me a question about Jack, and I'm so loaded down with information that I have a hard time giving them the answer they want in a nutshell, and something that's going to be interesting to the casual listener.


*some loss*


[Laura Leff] test

[steve }-shimp-{] Often you are at the mercy of the writer, if it is a print interview.

[yhtapmys] Hi Laura

[Brad from Georgia] LL--You can burn out on them. Like me and panels at SF cons. I've done a million of them, and it seems to me I can never say anything new or interesting.

[steve }-shimp-{] Reading you loud and clear Laura.

[Maxwell] You're back, Laura.

[Laura Leff] Did anyone get my test message a minute ago?

[steve }-shimp-{] There was some kind of hiccup there for a second.

[Laura Leff] OK...well, I liked the Burns story too.

[ed kienzler] yes

[Maxwell] Yeah, but if it was a minute, it was really lagged.

[Brad from Georgia] The artsy lady from the local paper once interviewed me and her last question was, "If you could change just one thing in the world, what would it be?" I said, "My underwear," and they printed that.

[steve }-shimp-{] I'm surprised I haven't been kicked out of the room, my wifi connection is pretty spotty.

[Laura Leff] All I saw was my comment about being loaded down with info, then nothing.

[steve }-shimp-{] So if I leave, don't be offended!

[Brad from Georgia] I saw the test message.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Good answer. Stupid question.

[steve }-shimp-{] If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?

[Laura Leff] Someone asked me once that if I could ask Jack just one question, what would it be?

[Brad from Georgia] I dunno. What was the one in Waukegan that died?

[Maxwell] I'd be an elm tree because I've always wanted to get Dutch elm disease.

[steve }-shimp-{] Just because its sap was in California.

[Laura Leff] My answer, after some thought, was "What can I do for you?"

[Laura Leff] Brad - The original one was an elm. The new one is a sugar maple.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - That's what killed it.

[ed kienzler] i once was asked how many newspapers i read a week and having worked at newspaper clipping service at the time i said 350 a week it was part of my job

[steve }-shimp-{] Extra-sappy, those sugar maples.

[Brad from Georgia] I remember a James Thurber story about his ancestors. His great-grandfather died of Dutch Elm Disease.

[Maxwell] Laura, I know. It killed most of the elms in this part of the country, unfortunately.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Hey, Waukegan asked what I'd like put on the plaque so they can get me a bid for it. I've just got to design something, and I'll send it over to you and Joel.

[ed kienzler] the guy hung up after that

[Laura Leff] Brad - Talk about a family tree.

[steve }-shimp-{] Cool. A plaque for the tree? Or the house?

[Laura Leff] Steve - The tree we planted.

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, cool!

[steve }-shimp-{] Had to wait a few years to make sure it lived?

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Laura Leff] I still have to laugh that I didn't know that putting the dirt in was really ceremonial, and I just kept shovelling it into the hole.

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Laura Leff] Steve - No, had to wait a few years to make sure I had the money to cover the plaque!

[ed kienzler] HMMM

[Maxwell] Remind me never to give you scissors at a ribbon cutting ceremony.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Yes, I'll be running in no time.

[Laura Leff] So what else about the Tonight Show?


[Laura Leff] I'll cut through the issue.

[ed kienzler] quit the caps ed

[Brad from Georgia] Johnny seemed so respectful toward Jack.

[steve }-shimp-{] Anyone else surprised that Roch called Jack "Mr. Benny" offstage? I thought that was a pretty big revelation.

[steve }-shimp-{] In the ever-mysterious Eddie Anderson realm of questions.

[yhtapmys] I was surprised your audio dub is from up here.

[Laura Leff] The Enigmatic Eddie Anderson

[Brad from Georgia] Steve--Yes, I always thought he would have called Jack "Whitey" for some reason.

[ed kienzler] not it seems that Rochester was very polite man

[Laura Leff] Yht - Yeah, can't tell you who originally leaned their tape recorder against the TV.

[Laura Leff] Tweren't me.

[steve }-shimp-{] Yes, maybe overly deferential as would be the norm at the time.

[Maxwell] I'm glad somebody did.

[steve }-shimp-{] So is the VTR of this Tonight Show lost?

[Laura Leff] Probably not...I think Carson Productions has most of them.

[Brad from Georgia] Eddie reportedly had a temper, but he never seemed to get angry at Jack. Worried about being fired occasionally, but angry never.

[Laura Leff] The later ones, anyway.

[steve }-shimp-{] Hope so.

[ed kienzler] if it came after 1972 when he moved to california maybe not

[Laura Leff] Brad - Well, and that was more because he was often late and unpredictable.

[Brad from Georgia] "Lost at sea" indeed.

[Maxwell] Or lost at sea.

[Brad from Georgia] Time warp kicked in again.

[Laura Leff] There's an echo in here

[steve }-shimp-{] The Hershey bar line is a classic, I am glad to hear Eddie came up with that.

[Laura Leff] Aren't the original Tonight Shows lost at sea as well?

[Brad from Georgia] Yes, I remember that JB show!

[ed kienzler] yes they were erased

[Brad from Georgia] LL--Yes, the network wiped most of the early tapes.

[Maxwell] Laura, A lot of the early ones are because NBC erased them (in their infinite wisdom).

[ed kienzler] except for a few of the NY shows

[Laura Leff] OK...I thought I'd heard that they dumped the stock in the Pacific.

[Laura Leff] Maybe that was something else.

[Brad from Georgia] NASA wiped the tapes of the moon landing, too...not the photos, but the telemetry data.

[Laura Leff] Johnny and Patrick Troughton.   

[ed kienzler] like the ed ames episode and jack webb too

[Maxwell] Some of them (like the Ed Ames tomahawk tape) only survive in glorious B&W, too.

[Laura Leff] Was Ed Ames originally in color?

[ed kienzler] don't know

[Brad from Georgia] LL--they dumped the props from "Intolerance" on a beach.

[Maxwell] Carson was always in color.

[Laura Leff] Brad - That's a lot of elephants.

[yhtapmys] Not very tolerant of them.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Really? I thought he started around 1964, before color was really used much.

[ed kienzler] i did not get a color set until 1976

[Brad from Georgia] That's about when we got our first color set. Won it in a contest.

[Maxwell] NBC was using color in the mid-'50s for a lot of shows, and Tonight was one of them.

[Laura Leff] There's a bit in one of the First Farewell Special commercials about Jack not getting a color set until late.

[Maxwell] from the mid '50s.

[steve }-shimp-{] All of Jack's SHOWER OF STARS were in color too, IIRC.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Well, I'll be darned. I've just never seen anything of Tonight before about 1968 that was in color. Not Steve Allen, Jack Paar, or Carson.

[Maxwell] Steve, that's possible. That was before CBS put a ban on color shows.

[Brad from Georgia] I remember when my dad got this plastic sheet to put on the TV screen--green band at the bottom, orange in the mddle, blue at top. It was supposed to give the illusion of color TV.

[ed kienzler] color tv's were amde by NBC practically

[ed kienzler] (sc)

[Brad from Georgia] It actually looked like vieiwing TV through an Albanian flag.

[steve }-shimp-{] I've heard of those sheets Brad!

[Laura Leff] Brad - Oh, I've heard of those. Only works for outside shots.

[steve }-shimp-{] Man, talk about desperation for color.

[Brad from Georgia] I once owned the Winky-Dink and You plastic sheet and crayon set.

[Maxwell] I can remember seeing the peacock before the Tonight Show when I was a teenager, so that was pre-1968.

[Laura Leff] There were also some commercials that had flashing lines around the edge that mess up the rods and cones in your eyes and make you think you're seeing color.

[Maxwell] Well, I was still a teenager then, but I was in college.

[ed kienzler] oh god thats old!!!

[Laura Leff] Dan and I were laughing today remembering the title card before the 1966 Benny Special with the voiceover "Star Trek will not be seen tonight, so we can bring you this special program..."

[Laura Leff] And it says "Star Trek IN COLOR"

[Brad from Georgia] Professor Von Drake sang a little color song on the first color Disney broadcast, "The Spectrum Song." Then for folks with B&W TVs, he sang it a different way: "Black white gray gray black, white gray black black gray.

[ed kienzler] how many remember tennesee tuxedo?

[Laura Leff] A little

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[Maxwell] ed Yeah, I remember vaguely. Never watched it, though.

[ed kienzler] didn't mr whoopie's closet remind one of fibber mcgees?

[Brad from Georgia] I remember Tennessee Tuxedo. Don Adams.

[Laura Leff] Seeing him was more at the mercy of whether the station happened to run one of his cartoons in the middle of other cartoons.

[yhtapmys] Larry Storch.

[ed kienzler] when he got 3DBB out

[Laura Leff] I remember Get Smart...

[ed kienzler] i thought of that this morning

[Maxwell] IIRC the other networks went to color in 1967. Whatever the last season was of The Fugitive.

[ed kienzler] 1966

[ed kienzler] i think

[Laura Leff] Oh, I think Jack may have pre-empted The Fugitive as well once.

[Maxwell] My dad waited another two years until his TV died and then got a color set.

[Maxwell] LL only if Jack was on ABC.

[Laura Leff] Either that, or I'm just remembering the skit he did on a Bob Hope special with a send-up of The Fugitive.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - OK, that must be it.

[steve }-shimp-{] I always remember the Addamses and Munsters being the last regular b/w shows, they both ended after the 1965-66 season

[ed kienzler] my dad got his from a great aunt in OK. ...

[Maxwell] Don't forget Jeannie. First season was in B&W.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Ah, that's right!

[Brad from Georgia] Our kids were so pleased when we finally got a color TV. Our old B&W had lost all volume control--it was blast-out-loud or silent, with nothing in between. We put a pillow on the speaker to muffle it.

[Laura Leff] Gilligan's Island too.

[steve }-shimp-{] Petticoat Junction switched from b/w to color as well

[Laura Leff] Brad - Good lo-tech solution.

[steve }-shimp-{] Probably a few others

[Maxwell] Yeah, both CBS and ABC were all B&W during the first half-plus of the '60s.

[ed kienzler] that's right and the pilot was filmed the week after JFK died

[Laura Leff] Jack Benny guest stars on Gilligan's Island...can you picture it?

[Brad from Georgia] Bob Denver said that when they switched to color for GI, they had to dye the water. It was putrid and a slimy brown in the B&W days.

[ed kienzler] Gilliigan

[steve }-shimp-{] Gastrointestinal?

[steve }-shimp-{] Jack would be a funny Gilligan.

[Laura Leff] That laugh track could cause GI disturbance...

[steve }-shimp-{] Frank Nelson as Mr. Howell

[ed kienzler] a plane picks him up 'cause they can hear the violin

[Brad from Georgia] "So your name is Gilligan, huh? You . . . you don't sing, do you? Are you a tenor?

[Laura Leff] Could probably use the same costume as for the Beach Boys segment.

[steve }-shimp-{] Don as the Skipper

[ed kienzler] good

[yhtapmys] Oh, Skipper? Yeesssss?!

[steve }-shimp-{] Maybe Dennis as Gilligan, actually

[Laura Leff] Verna Felton as Mrs. Howell?

[ed kienzler] dennis as the professor

[Laura Leff] Or actually Ronald and Benita Colman as the Howells

[steve }-shimp-{] Perfect!

[ed kienzler] oh peachy lovie

[Maxwell] There ya go!

[yhtapmys] Hey, wasn't Hans Conried on Gilligan's Island?

[ed kienzler] yes

[Laura Leff] Inevitably

[steve }-shimp-{] The inevitable

[ed kienzler] wrong way feldman

[Maxwell] He had to have been. He was inevitable.

[Brad from Georgia] Conreid was Wrong-Way Feldman, a pilot....shoot, Steve.

[yhtapmys] Well, that'll keep Kay happy.

[Laura Leff] Hate to admit I had a favorite episode of GI...I was really young then...but...

[ed kienzler] which one LL?

[Laura Leff] It's the one where they made the movie. Why do I think Phil Silvers was on that episode? Or is that the Carmen/Shakespeare sendup?

[Maxwell] I never watched GI. Never could sit through an entire show.

[ed kienzler] the play episode

[yhtapmys] Phil Silvers one was the best.

[Brad from Georgia] They all run together. I sort of remember a fantasy sequence where Gilligan was Sherlock Holmes.

[yhtapmys] I didn't realised he owned the show.

[Laura Leff] I liked the shot of Gilligan's hand that got in front of the camera. I always went in for surreal humor.

[ed kienzler] yea the prod co was part of his

[Laura Leff] Sherlock Holmes owned Gilligan's Island?

[steve }-shimp-{] Where did I just see an interview with both Jack and Phil Silvers together?

[steve }-shimp-{] Some youtube blur probably.

[ed kienzler] my dear watson

[Laura Leff] Steve - You should see...um...dang...the western that they did together...

[Laura Leff] Laura Leff is blanking *aggggghhhh*

[ed kienzler] how about FRESH FISH!!!

[Laura Leff] Slowest Gun in the West

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, yeah, there was the photo contest pic. But this was an interview where Phil was just praising Jack enormously.

[steve }-shimp-{] and vice-versa.

[yhtapmys] Yeah, Steve, there were three of them.

[ed kienzler] who would play ginger and mary ann?

[steve }-shimp-{] Mabel and Gertrude!

[Laura Leff] Iris Adrian as Ginger?

[Maxwell] Who does Mary play?

[Laura Leff] Actually yeah...Sara Berner and Bea Benaderet

[Laura Leff] The ship

[ed kienzler] great one steve!!!lol

[yhtapmys] No, Babe is the Minnow.

[Laura Leff] Because in front of an audience she was a wreck


[yhtapmys] Yikes

[ed kienzler] wow

[steve }-shimp-{] ba-dum bump!

[ed kienzler] bababa bing

[steve }-shimp-{] We really need a *rimshot* sound

[Laura Leff] Thanks folks, I'll be playing here all week...

[Laura Leff] *whip*

[steve }-shimp-{] Not quite the same...

[Laura Leff] closer than *meow*

[Maxwell] True.

[steve }-shimp-{] kitten with a whip!

[ed kienzler] bob denver's son patrick played a tiny Gilligan

[Laura Leff] Yeah!

[Maxwell] One of my favorite MST3Ks.

[Brad from Georgia] I was surprised that Jack didn't talk more about his Navy days on the Carson show.

[steve }-shimp-{] I met Russel Johnson at one point. Nice guy.

[Laura Leff] He did? I didn't know Gilligan ever...you know...KNEW a woman...

[ed kienzler] lost a son to AIDS

[Laura Leff] Brad - I've got an original of that photo on my wall...

[Laura Leff] A vintage print, that is

[Laura Leff] Let's see if I can find a link to it...

[Laura Leff] http://www.jackbenny.org/Pix/Portraits/1894_1929/1918_navy.htm

[steve }-shimp-{] I'm pretty sure it's in Sunday Nights at Seven

[Brad from Georgia] Somewhere I've heard Jack go into detail about making his debut as a comedian in the Navy show. I think he credits Pat O'Brien for persuading him to talk in front of an audience.

[ed kienzler] great book

[Maxwell] Brad, yup, I've heard that story, too.

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[Laura Leff] Brad - Yeah, because that makes the story play better. But it wasn't Pat O'Brien.

[Brad from Georgia] Yes, I knew that.

[Laura Leff] Blanking again on the name of who it probably was...Dave...

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[Laura Leff] David Wolff

[Brad from Georgia] Dave Seville. "I'm tellin' ya, Jack, just pitch your voice real high...."

[ed kienzler] alvin simon theo

[Laura Leff] I see that in my on-line biography of Jack I took both stories...found a source later where Pat O'Brien says that he didn't know Jack back then.

[Maxwell] Time to edit the bio.

[Laura Leff] One of the great challenges of research...I had someone give me a bunch of static once because I claimed something and they said Jack claimed something else, "So that's the truth."

[steve }-shimp-{] Jack looks like he belongs on a box of Cracker Jacks in that photo  

[Laura Leff] Steve - Har har!

[steve }-shimp-{] He's got a batman style utility belt to hold all the prizes.

[Brad from Georgia] Jack was a performer. If a story can be improved, a performer improves it. I know 'cause my wife keeps yelling at me for telling so many lies.

[Laura Leff] I'd love to use Jack as the ultimate source of truth, but as Larry Adler points out in his autobiography, we don't always remember our own lives accurately.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[Laura Leff] Gee, I've got a running belt with little water bottles that doesn't look all that different from Jack's...

[steve }-shimp-{] but, do you have giant spats?

[steve }-shimp-{] Or whatever that leg gear is

[Laura Leff] What's also funny is that you'll see Jack in that pose in a few different photos. Someone had an Exacto knife (or the vintage equivalent) and liked to paste that pose around.

[Laura Leff] Steve - No, too sweaty.

[Brad from Georgia] Ray Bolger says that in Ajean Harmetz's book on "Wizard of Oz": "People say I lie a lot, and I guess I do, but an Irishman had rather tell a good lie than no story at all."

[Brad from Georgia] Steve--Those are puttees.

[Maxwell] Sounds like my dad's relatives, and they're not even Irish!

[Laura Leff] One of these days I've got to buy my own copy of "Rashomon". I think it's the best commentary ever on the true nature of "TRUTH".

[Maxwell] Cement mixer, puttee, puttee, puttee....

[steve }-shimp-{] Is that someone on the receiving end of a putter?

[Laura Leff] That would be a mashie niblick.

[steve }-shimp-{] I am calling golf balls, from now on, "puttees"

[Maxwell] Are you the putter, or the puttee.

[Maxwell] ?

[steve }-shimp-{] Don't ask me, I'm just puttering around.

[Laura Leff] Steve- Except on the tee, where they're "drivees".

[Maxwell] Sillee puttee.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell...putt putt putt

[Maxwell] cought

[Maxwell] cough

[Brad from Georgia] Nah, puttees were once worn in the Navy to keep the bell bottoms under control. A spiral of cloth wound up the leg. They're also good for varicose veins.

[Maxwell] Now I can't type.

[Laura Leff] Putt Mr Paley...putt......putt.............putt putt...............putt

[Brad from Georgia] Geez, does anyone know what a topi is?

[Laura Leff] Brad - That's when your veins are too close together.

[Maxwell] The opposite of a bottomi?

[steve }-shimp-{] That is some impressive trivia knowledge Brad!

[Laura Leff] Look it up in a topi-ary.

[Brad from Georgia] Nope. It's a pith helmet of the sort worn often in the movies by Ronald Colman.

[Maxwell] It's a long way to topi-ary

[Laura Leff] Is that a helmet to pith in?

[steve }-shimp-{] Laura beat me to it.

[Maxwell] I don't even have a helmet to pith in.

[steve }-shimp-{] One to wear, one to pith in.

[Laura Leff] Which reminds me of one of the Remley letters...

[Brad from Georgia] Woody Allen movie: "He's a wise man. His sayings are very pithy." Allen: "Yeth, they are."

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Laura Leff] Sounds like Bananas.

[Brad from Georgia] "Love and Death," actually.

[yhtapmys] Are you going to have to edit this if it quote a Remley letter?

[Laura Leff] Oh yes, I remember that...

[Laura Leff] Yht - I probably will...want me to go find it?

[yhtapmys] No.

[Laura Leff] It's not really that funny, but it's similar to what was just said.

[steve }-shimp-{] But, was it funnier than the Shirley Herman scrapbook?

[yhtapmys] I'd rather think of those two without bodily function jokes.

[Brad from Georgia] While we were in Chattanooga, we saw the latest "Harry Potter" movie again. I wish Jack's cast could have performed in that. Of course, as adults they wouldn't have had much to do....

[Laura Leff] It's actually the only Remley letter that I'd actually seen Jack repeat. The same story came out a few years later, and Jack wrote the same joke to Remley. Seemed like he didn't remember he'd sent it previously!

[Laura Leff] Steve - Not after we got through with it.

[yhtapmys] Well, he can't do anything without his writers!

[Maxwell] Or he thought it was so good it bore repeating.

[Laura Leff] Yht - And indeed, that's what a LOT of the Remley letters discuss.

[Brad from Georgia] Jack did the same thing with scripts, so why not letters?

[Laura Leff] Brad - We just watched Michael Gambon as "Jim Henson's Storyteller: The Greek Myths".

[Maxwell] Shouldn't that be mythth?

[Laura Leff] I think he's in Harry Potter.

[steve }-shimp-{] I didn't know Jim Henson was Greek.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Manischevivivitz

[steve }-shimp-{] Or was that a myth?

[Brad from Georgia] LL--Yep, Dumbledore. He snuffs it in the current film.

[steve }-shimp-{] SPOILER!!!

[Brad from Georgia] Oh, come on.

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Maxwell] Now cut that out!

[steve }-shimp-{] I read the book. But haven't seen the movie yet.

[Brad from Georgia] I mean, it's CALLED "Harry Potter and the Death of Dumbledore."

[Laura Leff] Dan read the second book and said, "It's the same as the first book." So I haven't bothered.

[yhtapmys] Next, he'll spoil the ending of this Carson interview.

[Laura Leff] They stand up and cheer as Jack's leaving.

[Brad from Georgia] LL--The books are very uneven. Some are WAY too long.

[Maxwell] But then Jack comes back.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Maybe, like Dickens, she gets paid by the word.

[yhtapmys] Maybe he can tell me who the local announcer is. It's driving me nuts.

[Laura Leff] And then Jack came back...the very next day...

[Laura Leff] Yht - In Seattle?

[Brad from Georgia] Dickens did not get paid by the word. I've seen his contracts.

[yhtapmys] Yes.

[yhtapmys] I thought it was Don Poier but I'm not so sure.

[Laura Leff] Brad - OK, *now* I'm impressed.

[Laura Leff] Brad - It's not Benny, but how did that happen?

[Brad from Georgia] That's my field, ya know. Dickens contracted for X number of monthly installments for each book, at a given fee, plus royalties.

[Maxwell] Shoot...I have to take the dog out. bbiab.

[Brad from Georgia] Don't do it, Maxwell! Don't shoot the dog!

[yhtapmys] Oh, Jack! "I look like a fairy."

[Laura Leff] Funny...I was transferring some of my stage notes to my database while I was listening to this show. Jack sometimes took a percentage of the gross as his salary.

[yhtapmys] Try saying that today.

[Laura Leff] Jack also said to someone, not on air, "I walk like a fag." So go figure.

[Brad from Georgia] Dickens more or less wrote "A Christmas Carol" on spec. He wanted it treated so specially that the manufacturing process meant he earned almost nothing per volume sold.

[Laura Leff] Then again, he really stole the walk from Frank Fay, who was...so...

[yhtapmys] Well, off air is one thing...

[yhtapmys] But he said he got it from Loretta Young!

[Brad from Georgia] Fortunately, it came out in so many later, cheaper editions it made him a lot of money.

[Laura Leff] Yht - Ya see? Ya see? Just can't trust Jack.   

[Laura Leff] Brad - But oh, to hold one of those original copies! I bet they were beautiful.

[Laura Leff] (And Dan and I finished watching "84 Charing Cross Road" about 15 minutes before this chat started...)

[Laura Leff] So what else about the Tonight Show for tonight's chat? Plenty of discussion fodder there...

[Brad from Georgia] Very deluxe, LL. I saw one at the Library of Congress once. An 1843 book, and because of the acid-free paper, it looked great.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Wow...Dickens was quite ahead of his time with acid-free paper!

[steve }-shimp-{] Well, paper used to be a quality product...!

[Brad from Georgia] No, not really. Paper was normally acid-free until the late 1800s.

[Laura Leff] Really? Interesting...I have a 1750 Mennonite organist's hymnal, and I thought it had the brown spotting just like most books.

[Brad from Georgia] That's foxing, not oxidation. Usually caused by a fungus.

[steve }-shimp-{] Did we schedule the tonight show for discussion before or after Ed McMahon died?

[steve }-shimp-{] I was thinking about that when he was chortling away at the beginning of the program.

[Laura Leff] Brad - OK...sorry for being silly, but I thought foxing was a roughing up of the edges.

[Laura Leff] Steve - I'm pretty sure it was before he died, because we took a hiatus in July.

[Brad from Georgia] Foxing is a discoloration in the pages that, on the edges, leads to fraying.

[Maxwell] Back

[Laura Leff] (And thanks folks...I seriously needed it. Was pulling down 60 hrs/wk at that point.)

[steve }-shimp-{] Sounds like things have calmed down a bit, I hope.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Aha! Thanks for the education. I should have known that myself.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Yes, for the moment. Hard project to predict...got to take it one day at a time. Go live is October 5!

[Laura Leff] So what else Benny-wise is on everyone's mind tonight?

[yhtapmys] Nothing more about Shirley Herman, Laura, sorry.

[Laura Leff] Ah darn. A woman of mystery.

[steve }-shimp-{] When was Jack's first appearance on the Tonight Show?

[steve }-shimp-{] Seems like he was on fairly frequently.

[Laura Leff] Ooh...good question. Darn, that's a Volume 4 question.

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[steve }-shimp-{] We'll back-burner that one then.

[Laura Leff] Steve - He was. I handled several of his contracts for later appearances...maybe even this one.

[Brad from Georgia] Why didn't Jack ever guest-host the Tonight Show?

[steve }-shimp-{] I thought the guest-hosting was more later in the TS run.

[steve }-shimp-{] Did Carson do that early on?

[Laura Leff] Brad - Just guessing, but I would imagine he didn't really see himself as an ad-lib interviewer.

[Brad from Georgia] Why didn't Jack ever guest-star on "Bonanza?"

[Laura Leff] Groucho, 'nother story.

[Laura Leff] Maybe because it competed with his show?   

[Brad from Georgia] Heh, heh.

[Laura Leff] He did Slowest Gun in the West...give a guy a break!

[Laura Leff] And Buck Benny.

[Brad from Georgia] Well, that would be one way of getting his audience back.....

[yhtapmys] Geez, I *did* find another Shirley Herman reference.

[Laura Leff] Mental image of Jack running on, shooting a guy, and saying, "That's for watching Bonanza instead of my show!" and then leaving.

[steve }-shimp-{] Whose Chop Suey house was she at?

[Maxwell] Jack takes down the entire Cartwright clan by playing "Love in Bloom"

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Like the end of the Wayne Newton episode where even the Greek statues start leaving.

[Maxwell] Right.

[steve }-shimp-{]  

[Laura Leff] Yht - C'mon spill...

[yhtapmys] Billboard, June 24, 1944

[steve }-shimp-{] She was on a Billboard for Chop Suey?

[Brad from Georgia] I've been re-reading the mystery novels of Ross Macdonald recently. In "The Goodbye Look," there's an elderly banker whose demeanor is that of "an exasperated old comedian." What a role for Jack, I thought!

[yhtapmys] Shirley Herman (Mrs. Shlepperman of the Benny program) current at Gray Wolf Tavern, Sharon, Pa.

[Laura Leff] Brad - That or Frank Nelson

[yhtapmys] That's all it says/

[steve }-shimp-{] Or Gale Gordon

[Laura Leff] Geez...that just freaks me out.

[steve }-shimp-{] Mr. Mooney?

[Brad from Georgia] This has got to be the worst episode of "Family Guy" that I have ever seen....

[Laura Leff] Brad - Or Franklin Pangborn

[Maxwell] That's what you get for watching "Family Guy."

[Maxwell] Or Edgar Kennedy.

[ed kienzler] yes

[Brad from Georgia] This one I think was really written by manatees.

[Laura Leff] I was at the San Francisco Silent Film Festival and when Franklin Pangborn appeared in "Lady of the Pavements" in a supporting role, he got applause.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Is it worse than Gilligan's Island?

[Brad from Georgia] It had an entire Conway Twitty song. At least the recurring jokes in "The Simpsons" don't go on for five minutes.

[Maxwell] Everybody doesn't like something, but nobody doesn't like Franklin Pangborn.

[steve }-shimp-{] Don't knock the manatees. They are living in a river about 200 yards from me...

[ed kienzler] Bob Denver was a very smart man

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Especially in San Francisco. Him and Edward Everett Horton.

[Brad from Georgia] Well, O.J. Simpson is a "guest star" on this "Family Guy."

[Laura Leff] Steve - Don't tease the manatees, man.

[steve }-shimp-{] I always liked Bob Denver on Dobie Gillis more than Gilligan.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Does he kill or rob anyone?

[Laura Leff] I thought he was in jail.

[Brad from Georgia] No, he plays golf with Peter Griffin.

[Maxwell] I liked Denver on the Good Guys with Herb Edelman. I think that one lasted about 13 weeks.

[ed kienzler] dobie wants a girl whose dreamy...

[steve }-shimp-{] Which one is the puttee?

[ed kienzler] he was typecast as gilligan could not get out of it

[Brad from Georgia] Anyone see the reunion "Dobie Gillis" film when Dobie asks Maynard G. Krebs "You just disappeared! Where have you been all these years?" And Maynard says, "There was this boat and this island--it's a long story, man."

[ed kienzler] funny

[steve }-shimp-{] LOL, I think I actually remember that Brad.

[Laura Leff] Jack was generous, but played a cheapskate.

[Brad from Georgia] Which makes him more likeable. Imagine if he was cheap but played a generousskate.

[Laura Leff] Sounds better than the Brady Bunch reunions

[yhtapmys] Previously transcribed for posting at a more convenience time.

[steve }-shimp-{] Is Zelda still a California Congresscritter?

[Maxwell] It had to be better than the Dick Van Dyke reunion where Alan Brady wants Rob and Sally to write his obituary.

[Brad from Georgia] I really do think that Jack's audience saw through the performance and saw the warmth and generosity in Jack.

[Laura Leff] So...I mentioned Jon Stewart at the top of the show. I recently was scratching my head over what makes me laugh nowadays because there's so much comedy that doesn't.

[steve }-shimp-{] Brad, that is a point I totally agree with.

[Laura Leff] So what's funny today?

[steve }-shimp-{] I think that is part of the Jack Benny secret recipe of success...

[Maxwell] You know what didn't make me laugh? The show Make Me Laugh.

[Brad from Georgia] The Hardees "French Dip" commercial just played. The gal who does the French Kiss is hot.

[steve }-shimp-{] Jon Stewart is pretty funny.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - I'll second that opinion.

[ed kienzler] brad-YOU'RE RIGHT

[Laura Leff] Most of the stuff on Comedy Central doesn't make me laugh.

[Maxwell] Most stand up today doesn't make me laugh.

[Brad from Georgia] Garrison Keillor used to have a little bit called "Funny or Not?" in which a panel listened to people tell stories and then decided whether the stories were funny or not.

[Brad from Georgia] The stories were never funny.

[Laura Leff] Dan makes me laugh.

[Laura Leff] But that doesn't help you all.

[ed kienzler] mytwin makes me laugh

[Brad from Georgia] Anybody ever heard of the Lovell Sisters?

[Maxwell] Dogs make me laugh.

[steve }-shimp-{] No, are they related to the chicken sisters?

[Laura Leff] Jerry Seinfeld doesn't do a thing for me. I even saw him live at a convention once, and I was the only person sitting in the audience not laughing at all.

[ed kienzler] or the king sisters?

[Laura Leff] Brad - Or the Smothers Sisters?

[Laura Leff] Or the Lennon Sisters?

[Maxwell] Phyllis Diller never made me laugh.

[ed kienzler] LL WOW!!!

[yhtapmys] Five Demarco

[Maxwell] But she DOES look like Bob Hope.

[steve }-shimp-{] Yeah, I have a hard time bringing too many modern comedians to mind that make me laugh.

[Brad from Georgia] Nah, they're a bluegrass group, three sisters. They're from near here but are a big hit in Europe. We're going to see them in about a month in a small Atlanta venue. Anyone know who Katie Melua is?

[Laura Leff] Even Jon Stewart sometimes goes on too long with a gag, or grabs for the crotch too much.

[ed kienzler] or the Ursuline Sisters?

[yhtapmys] Brad, if you humm...

[Maxwell] Squeeze her name together, and you have Kalua.

[Laura Leff] Or the Dionne Quintuplets...

[ed kienzler] or octo mom

[Laura Leff] Or the Vaseline Sisters

[Maxwell] The Landrews Sisters make me laugh.

[Laura Leff] Ed - I could do a pun on that, but I'd have to edit it out of the transcript.

[ed kienzler] or andrews sisters

[Brad from Georgia] Katie is the number one female vocalist in Europe. She played the same venue recently and we saw her here--the place only holds 140 people! Katie Melua normally plays to 10,000. Yet hardly anyone here has heard of her.

[ed kienzler] sorry LL

[Laura Leff] Brad - Does she make you laugh?

[Brad from Georgia] Yes, she's funny and sings weird songs.

[Laura Leff] Ed - Oh no, not your fault. Just censoring myself.

[Maxwell] They love Jerry Lewis in France. I never could figure out why.

[ed kienzler] ok

[steve }-shimp-{] And David Hasselhoff in Germany.

[steve }-shimp-{] The mysteries of translation...

[Brad from Georgia] And she's tiny. I doubt if she's even five feet tall, and she has to weigh about eighty-ninety pounds.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - I was sitting in the lower Andes drinking Malbec with Dan and a couple friends

[Laura Leff] and one of them is from France, and I asked him why they love Jerry Lewis.

[Maxwell] What did he say?

[Laura Leff] His answer was simple: "We love slapstick."

[Laura Leff] Oh. Duh.

[Maxwell] So do I.

[Brad from Georgia] I'd like to tour the Amosan Andes some day.

[Maxwell] So why do the French love Jerry Lewis?

[yhtapmys] With Jerry Lewis?

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Because they love slapstick.

[yhtapmys] Would you open for him Brad?

[Laura Leff] Yht - Good one.

[Maxwell] So do I...So...never mind.

[Brad from Georgia] Because they call him "Zharee Looees." That's funny, man.

[yhtapmys] Or would you be second and Fink's Mules opening?

[Brad from Georgia] I'm not following those mules again. Not without a shovel, anyway.

[Maxwell] I remember seeing Dean and Jerry on TV (probably the Colgate Comedy Hour or something like that) when I was little. I thought that was funny.

[yhtapmys] Never mind. They played the three spot (really).

[Maxwell] Their movies...not so much...Jerry solo. BLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEECCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHh!

[Laura Leff] Does Stephen Colbert make anyone laugh?

[steve }-shimp-{] Jerry drives me up a wall.

[steve }-shimp-{] Yeah, I like Colbert.

[Laura Leff] When he was in Iraq, he was clearly doing a full-on Bob Hope.

[Maxwell] I never watch him or Jon Stewart. I guess I'm backwards.

[Brad from Georgia] I read a bio of Dean Martin that said he broke up the team because he didn't want to play a cop in "The Delicate Delinquent." Darren McGavin took the role instead.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Not necessarily. Just curious because they're popular right now.

[steve }-shimp-{] Actually the first time I became aware of Stephen Colbert was when he was on "Strangers With Candy". That's a crazy show that makes me laugh.

[Brad from Georgia] I find Colbert...amusing. Not laugh out loud funny usually. Of course I work with people who really holds the opinions he spoofs.

[Laura Leff] I've heard people say the show "Curb Your Enthusiasm" is good, but I've never seen it.

[Maxwell] I haven't seen it either. I don't get HBO.

[Brad from Georgia] Our son loves Colbert. We got him an autographed copy of Colbert's book "I Am an American, and So Can You."

[Laura Leff] Stephen Wright used to make me laugh, but I haven't seen him do anything in a while.

[steve }-shimp-{] I'm so out of it with current stuff. I gave up cable years ago and haven't really missed it.

[Maxwell] I get cable and watch TCM and The Food Network.

[Maxwell] Oh, and Encore Westerns.

[Laura Leff] We get cable and watch DVDs.

[Brad from Georgia] Retro TV was showing the Jack Benny program recently, but at a time when I couldn't see it.

[Maxwell] We still have a local station showing Benny.

User steve }-shimp-{ has logged out.

User steve }-shimp-{ has entered this room.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Oh yes, I think someone sent me to their Web site. And someone asked about licensing the shows, so I put them in touch with my NBC rights contact.

[steve }-shimp-{] whoops, got zapped

[Maxwell] But it's on at like 1:00 a.m. and I'm too old to stay up that late.

[Laura Leff] You know what's really, really, really, really good, current, and not comedy?

[Laura Leff] Mad Men

[steve }-shimp-{] Oh, yeah, I've seen an episode or two of that. I agree.

[Laura Leff] We just finished season 2 on DVD.

[Maxwell] I live in the past.

[steve }-shimp-{] I will have to get the DVDs.

[steve }-shimp-{] Mad Men is set in the past Max.

[steve }-shimp-{] Very good evocation of the fifties, in kind of a weird Douglas Sirk style.

[Laura Leff] I almost put a post on "Other stuff we like" for it.

[Brad from Georgia] Here's a kind of Jack Benny moment: we wanted to ride the Lookout Mountain inclined railroad. To get there we used our GPS. It seemed to take us a circuitous route..and we finally came out at the TOP OF THE TRACK, not at the station!

[Maxwell] I remember the '50s. It was nothing special.

[Maxwell] The Yankees kept beating the White Sox.

[Laura Leff] More evocative of 1960-62.

[Maxwell] I remember '60-'62. The Yankees still kept beating the White Sox.

[Laura Leff] Amazing writing, awesome acting. Check it out.

[Maxwell] Only year they didn't was '59.

[yhtapmys] Brad, was it track 5?

[Maxwell] Mad Men. Noted.

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - I'm not sure that ever stopped...

[Maxwell] It did last week.

[Brad from Georgia] I remember 1957. The Soviets beat us into space. My grampaw wanted to rent a plane and shoot down Sputnik.

[Brad from Georgia] Yht, ain't but one track on the sucker.

[steve }-shimp-{] But it stops at Anaheim, Azusa, and Cucamonga, Georgia.

[Laura Leff] Steve - Sounds like the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe

[Maxwell] They didn't change the name to Rancho Cucamonga, GA, eh?

[steve }-shimp-{] Maybe one of 'em's in Tennessee. It's a border area.

[Brad from Georgia] Well, it's the only one that sounds that way, LL.

[Maxwell] Now it's the BNSF.

[Laura Leff] Michael Jackson = Elvis Presley = Judy Garland. *sigh*

[Maxwell] And the City of New Orleans runs on the Canadian National tracks.

[Brad from Georgia] Guy at the top of Lookout Mountain turned to me and said, "They told me you could see six states from here. What are they?" I said, "Georgia, Tennessee, North Carolina, Alabama, Nebraska, and Hawaii." He just nodded thoughtfully.

[steve }-shimp-{] Michael Jackson = Elvis Presley + Judy Garland ...

[ed kienzler] my mom had my twin and I in 1960

[yhtapmys] Hmm. Even CN doesn't run on CN tracks here.

[Laura Leff] Brad = No one listens any more.

[Maxwell] ed Same year? Wow!   

[Laura Leff] It was cold.

[ed kienzler] yes 8 kids in 12 years 3 more to come

[Laura Leff] It was very cold.

[Maxwell] Elvis Presley - Judy Garland = Sophie Tucker

[yhtapmys] Did she get a reality show?

[Laura Leff] Maxwell - Hey, I like that.


*some loss*


[yhtapmys] I'll post it on the forum.

[Laura Leff] Yht - Great. Thanks!

[Maxwell] Were Gary Cooper and Walter Brennan in the audience?

[Brad from Georgia] The odd thing is that people just don't remember the horrible epidemic of '18. I read a history of it about a year ago, and you'd think people would remember a disease aith a 10

[Brad from Georgia] per cent mortality rate.

[yhtapmys] We have NYT going back to I think the 30s in the library.

[Laura Leff] Brad - Hey, I remember it. Not personally, of course.

[Maxwell] Not the way they teach history nowadays.

[Laura Leff] But then again, I'm strange.

[Laura Leff] Anything else for tonight? Or should we call it good?

[Laura Leff] Any requests for next month?

[ed kienzler] my sister thinks iam strange for collecting OTR...

[Maxwell] I'm good.

[Laura Leff] I'll push off a week so it doesn't coincide with Labor Day.

[Brad from Georgia] I was an adult before I even heard of the Spanish Influenza, and then I think I first read about it in a short story by Katherine Anne Porter.

[Maxwell] Good idea.

[yhtapmys] I want the show with Shirley Herman!

[Maxwell] How about a season-opening show?

[ed kienzler] sounds good LL maybe a labor day show if there is one

[Brad from Georgia] Yeh, I'd better turn in. School starts this week.....

[Laura Leff] Yht - Point me at it, fella!   

[Laura Leff] Ed - I don't think the show ever started the season that early.

[yhtapmys] Geez, Laura, I've looked. I'm stumped.

[Brad from Georgia] Goodnight, all. Don't get the flu!

[ed kienzler] not a chance

[Laura Leff] Yht - Makes two of us.

[yhtapmys] Was Schlep in a movie with Jack?

User Brad from Georgia has logged out.

[Laura Leff] Ah, I bet I know a show to use...OK...

[Laura Leff] Yht - Hmmmmmmmmm...I think he was.

[Laura Leff] Would have to look it up.

[Laura Leff] Actually, hang on a minute.

[yhtapmys] Seems to me he was in Buck Benny, wasn't he?

[yhtapmys] No, it was Big Broadcast of 1937.

[Laura Leff] Big Broadcast of 1937 (thank you IMDB)

[Maxwell] Big Broadcast of 1937.

[Maxwell] Just to show I used IMDB, too.

[Laura Leff] Yeah, that's it.

[yhtapmys] With Billy Bletcher.

[Laura Leff] And as we all scan the full credits...

[Laura Leff] NO Shirley Herman. Good idea, though!

[yhtapmys] Sigh.

[Maxwell] Directed by Mitchell Leisen, the guy who directed Frenchman's Creek.

[yhtapmys] Damn that woman.

[ed kienzler] bye all i am at my youngest brother's house and computer and I hope to be on my own at home next month i'll be thinking of you all at the Illinois State fair on my vacation next week

[yhtapmys] OK, Ed.

[Maxwell] The movie where Basil Rathbone gets impaled by a suit of armor...well the sword with the suit.

[Laura Leff] And no Shirley Herman on IMDB period.

[Laura Leff] Enjoy, Ed!

[Maxwell] Have fun in Springfield, ed!

[ed kienzler] bye ll max and yht

User ed kienzler has logged out.

[Laura Leff] Take care, folks. Thanks for stopping!

[yhtapmys] That doesn't necessarily mean much, Laura.

[Maxwell] I'm outta here, too. So long!

[Laura Leff] True, but at least we checked.

User Maxwell has logged out.

[Laura Leff] Take care!

[yhtapmys] A lot of people didn't get credits.